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Old 08-14-2012, 04:41 PM
Dirtcheap Dirtcheap is offline
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Default antifreeze flush time

its time to change my antifreeze so im wondering is it worth it to upgrade to the IH 203 degree thermostat? does it help with wvo? or should i just use the 195 thermostat .. thanks
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Old 08-14-2012, 04:51 PM
Clay Clay is offline
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its time to change my antifreeze so im wondering is it worth it to upgrade to the IH 203 degree thermostat? does it help with wvo? or should i just use the 195 thermostat .. thanks
I would stay with the 195* therm. Also get rid of that Ford gold coolant and to a flush of the system then use the CAT red ELC coolant. its good for 500,000 miles and its better coolant without the silicates that the Gold has in it.
Highly recommended.
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:15 PM
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It's definitely not good to 500k in a 6.0. It needs to be changed MORE often than the gold stuff. It lacks Nitrites, that the gold coolant has.

A lot of guys use the ELC stuff, but with ANY coolant you should stay on top of maintenance of it. I wouldn't go more than 50k on the ELC coolant in a 6.0 myself. JMO.
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:37 PM
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It's definitely not good to 500k in a 6.0. It needs to be changed MORE often than the gold stuff. It lacks Nitrites, that the gold coolant has.

A lot of guys use the ELC stuff, but with ANY coolant you should stay on top of maintenance of it. I wouldn't go more than 50k on the ELC coolant in a 6.0 myself. JMO.
Explain the reasoning behind this? Or is it so because someone on a forum said so? If CAT engine owners will run their diesels that long on it, I dont see a difference.
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:33 PM
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How can you compare two completely different cooling systems? The fact is, NONE of the ELC's meet fords requirements for coolant, and none would be warrantied. The nitrite levels in the ELC's are too low. I don't need a forum to know that.

I'm not saying it can't be used, don't get me wrong. I know a bunch of people use it. Why are you recommending ELC? Not because you read it on a forum right? I don't like following blindly myself, so I always question these things. The fact remains, none of the ELC's I've found to date, are approved for use in the 6.0 application in a Ford truck. What's even more interesting is that the VT365 is approved for it in the medium duty applications, but you can't directly compare those even though they're the same engine essentially. The cooling systems are very different. The level of nitrites in the gold coolant is specifically there for corrosion resistance. I don't see any issues sticking with the Ford gold coolant and adding a coolant filter for some extra protection myself. But is that silicate, or is that casting sand from the block you find? Hmmm. Also, some of the ELC's out there are nitrite free! Some are not... so it might be worth looking at which ELC's are being used and what they contain. Though, none of them will match the Ford gold from what I've seen. I'd love to see one that does. The CAT brand that is so popular does contain some Nitrites. I can't recall the exact level, it's been a while since I looked into it, but it was in the 400-500ppm category if I remember correctly. I believe Ford gold is over 2000ppm.

I will probably end up using ELC myself, BUT, no way would I go anywhere near that mileage with it. I've thought of using the Ford gold anyways, just to prove a point, and I might still as well. The coolant system needs to be maintained regardless of what coolant is in there. Can you go longer with ELC? Can you go longer with Ford Gold? Eh... tough call. I'd say either should be fully flushed every 50k myself. Do you test with coolant strips at all?

Regardless, there is no way I would run ANY coolant for 500k in a 6.0. Everyone is quick to jump in the silicate bandwagon too, but look at the VT365 running ELC coolant, they have plenty of oil cooler failures too. I've seen calculations floating around for the physical amount of silicate in the coolant, in an actual mass reading. Something like LESS than .01lbs of silicate (similar to sand), in a 6.0 coolant system. Tap water has more silicate in it, generally speaking.


I just went and looked up Ford's spec for the 6.0, 2100-2600ppm Nitrite level needed....


To the OP, my whole point was, no matter which coolant you decide to use, make sure you maintain the coolant system regardless.
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:49 PM
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Sure I read it on an internet forum but I didnt buy it. I kept seeing it all over the forums and decided to do my own research and 2 years later I made it a priority when I saw the silicate deposits in my degas bottle last Dec. when I took it off to do my cab off work. I saw it also in my 6.4 when I drained is to take that degas bottle off. Some coolant spilled on on the floor when I set the bottle on the floor and there were deposits in it...a lot of them. I just dont see these differences in the cooling systems that would dictate use of a different coolants for each. Sure there are some differences but unless there are different alloys or something that would require more of less corrosive protection, I dont get it. Of course Ford doesnt recommend anything but the Ford Gold. They also dont approve of using anything more than B20 biofuel but we know you can use B100 safely.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because I'm satisfied with the research I did.
I'll look more into the nitrate requirements on a 6.0 though.
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Old 08-15-2012, 01:19 PM
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I'm sure you read this Mike but I"ll post it for others. This guy is very educated about the subject and explains it very well. This is one source I deemed credible in my research on the subject.


To give you a little background, first let me say that I've had extensive training and education in the field of coolants, some by the coolant manufacturers themselves. I worked with International during their cavitation crisis of the 6.9L and 7.3L IDI, helping to write bulletins, provide technical field data, and testing several different types of coolants, SCA's and mixtures thereof. I've operated and maintained a large fleet (100+ vehicles) of International/Ford 7.3L Powerstrokes. I am also a Mechanical Engineer with a background in Materials Science who has studied cavitation in cylinder walls and water pumps. Coolants are my specialty.

Where diesel cylinder cavitation is concerned, the bubbles are formed by the rapid flexing of the cylinder wall liners as the high compression, high energy diesel combustion process takes place. Much like if you filled a plastic liter pop bottle up with water and rapidly flexed the sides of the bottle back and forth with your hand. Bubbles form without any heat present. The bubbles in diesel cylinder wall cavitation don't explode, they implode due to pressure. It is this implosion against the metal surface that causes the pitting to form in the outside of the cylinder wall. Eventually the prolonged pitting become a hole. Water/coolant enters the cylinder, and thus we have engine failure (usually via hydrolock). Unlike gasoline engines, all diesel engines experience some level of inherent cavitation, some worse than others. FWIW, the Ford 6.9L and 7.9L IDI's originally had serious cavitation issues because Ford did not initially require (or add) SCA to the coolant. Ford later issued a bulletin to address that, and problems decreased dramatically.

As Bob stated, SCA's are one method of inhibiting cavitation by providing a barrier on the coolant side of the cylinder wall. However, I would like to say that it is not necessarily the SCA's displaced layer that can cause scale and coolant system plugging, but the components in the SCA itself, particularly when mixed with H2O or glycol. The use of conventional SCA is effective, but it requires testing, careful dosing, and frequent flushing. It will reduce heat transfer, and exacerbate water pump and other engine component failure.

One thing that importantly needs to be corrected, and a mistake than many misinformed people make, is that not all OAT coolants are like what GM uses. GM typically uses a "Dexcool" formulation, which is specifically not recommended for your diesel engine. Dexcool type coolants were never intended for diesel applications. There are many modern Heavy Duty Extended Life Coolants specifically designed for diesels. Delo ELC, Rotella ELC, International's Fleetrite ELC, CAT ELC, Mobil 1 ELC, and a host of others. They will address diesel cavitatation, provide superior metal corrosion protection, provide better heat transfer, require no testing and maintenance, be free of harmful abrasive silicates, borates, and phosphates, and have an operating life up to 1 million miles (Delo ELC). In fact International, who made your engine, recommends and factory-fills with these Heavy Duty Extended Life Coolants (Fleetrite ELC/Shell Rotella ELC). And in fact almost all heavy duty diesel manufacturers use Heavy Duty ELC's meeting the most strict requirements in the industry...Caterpillar's EC-1. Very little to do with GM's OAT coolant.

No where has Ford said you can not use a heavy duty ELC in your Powerstroke due to seal incompatibility. That is simply more misinformation. As we know International makes the engine and uses the HD ELC coolant, generally in more harsh, commercial applications. Seals are fine. The only coolants in the Owner's Manual Ford recommends you don't use are Dexcool and Ford's Specialty Orange. Owners and fleets have been using HD ELC successfully, and in fact with better success, for many, many years.

Another correction...Ford's Gold (G-05) coolant is nothing like a Heavy Duty ELC coolant. Thus is will not meet the more strict specs of other Heavy Duty ELC coolants, or provide the higher level of protection. The Gold is simply a universal hybrid, one-size-fits-all coolant that Ford uses in its entire line up that, with the exception of the Powerstroke, are all gasoline engines. Ford simply uses the Gold in your diesel out of convenience, simplicity, cost, and uniformity throughout it's product line and dealerships. The Gold coolant contains conventional (green coolant) components like silicate, which eventually form microscopic abrasives that eat water pump seals. It provides a lower level of cavitation protection using traditional SCA's like Nitrite, it has a shorter life, it reduces heat transfer compared to HD ELC's, and it in fact does require testing and SCA maintenance if you are an enthusiast about protecting your engine. In fact Ford recommends you add SCA to the Gold in certain F-Series applications. Caterpillar and John Deere also recommend adding SCA if it is going to be used in their diesels. Ironically, Ford's Gold will not meet International's heavy duty diesel B-1 spec. HD ELC's will. The Gold will work, but it's not the best.

For the record, adding SCA to a HD ELC will not produce anything close to "mud" or "goop". That is more misinformation. HD ELC's and SCA's are completely compatible, although not recommended only because you will lose the long-life properties of the HD ELC. There is no need to add SCA to HD ELC's. "Extenders" are available to add to HD ELC's if you want to further extend their life from the 300K, 500K, or 750K mile mark, depending on brand.

I have no intention of discrediting Bob's comments about the Evans and RMI-25, only to inform you. Evans is a good product, although expensive and hard to find. Less expensive, easier to find modern HD ELC's provide similar operating lives and similar (or better) protection. And the Evans does require modification of your cooling system to run low pressure, when your water pump seal is designed to run (and seal) under higher pressure, as documented by Ford. I have not used RMI-25 and don't plan to for reasons I won't discuss here. I would not recommend putting anything into your cooling system other than coolant and SCA.

Additionally, these days it is not appropriate to identify coolants by color. Color means nothing. A "green" coolant could be anything from a conventional, to a pre-charged, to a G-05, to an ELC. Same with red, purple, pink, gold, etc. You have to know what type of coolant it is.

There are 4 choices for your Powerstroke....

Conventional coolant (usually green) with the addition of SCA at initial fill. Frequent SCA testing and maintenance there after.

Pre-charged coolant (usually purple or pink). Comes with an initial dose of SCA. Frequent SCA testing and maintenance required thereafter.

G-05 coolants. Comes pre-charged with SCA package. Flush required at 50K miles. Semi-annual SCA testing and maintenance recommended.

Heavy Duty Extended Life Coolants. Come pre-charged with carboxylate inhibitors. No testing or maintenance. Super protection. Super long life.

Specialty coolants. Evans. Waterless, pressureless. Long life. No maintenance or testing. Expensive.

Not to be used - Dexcool, Universal coolants, All-makes-all-models, etc.

I use Chevron's Delo HD ELC. Good for 750K miles/8 years or 1M miles with addition of an extender.
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Old 08-15-2012, 01:19 PM
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I drained a couple gallons of coolant out of my truck a while back and put them in 1 gallon jugs and let them sit for months. There is definitely some sediment in the bottom of them for sure. I do use a coolant filter now too. Have so, for a while. I'm at just shy of 110k miles on my truck, original oil cooler, and deltas are still within reason, maybe 7* difference. It's not like I'm saying don't use the ELC's, just know what you're putting in and maintain it regardless of what is in there.

6.4's have even worse cavitation issues. How do we explain that? The block design and heads are nearly identical to the 6.0, yet their cavitation issues seem to set on way quicker.

I am by no means a coolant or cooling system expert, but I have read quite a bit on the subject. I do know that the cooing system capacity had a lot to do with what additives were used and not used.


Oops, you beat me with your other post there. Interesting read Clay. I would still be VERY leary of the "no maintenance" for the ELC coolant.
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Old 08-15-2012, 01:26 PM
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This from the same guy:

I would recommend a silicate-free, maintenance-free, Heavy Duty ELC. Heavy Duty Extended Life Coolants (HD ELC's - usually "Red") require no such SCA. These are the types of coolants International recommends for all 2/2/99-up engines.

Here is a list of ELC's that would work:

CAT HD ELC
Fleetrite HD ELC (International's brand)
Rotella HD ELC
Prestone HD ELC
Zerex Extreme HD ELC
Chevron/Texaco/Delo ELC

The latest formulation of the Delo ELC has a maintenance-free change interval of 750K miles/8 years or 1M miles with an extender.

Chevron DELO ELC is the bomb!

Fleetrite / Rotella ELC : The Rotella is the same exact stuff as the Fleetrite, just in different bottles and it's the best type of coolant to use. Just make sure you do a proper flush and use distilled water.

Zerez Extreme Duty (RED)...you can get it at Napa. It is already pre charged and doesn't require any monitoring or additives.

FYI, there are two types of SCA. DCA-2 and DCA-4.

NapaKool is a DCA-2 SCA.

DCA-2 is a Nitrite-only based SCA. Nitrite is the primary and most effective cavitation inhibitor in any SCA. DCA-2 usually contains potassium buffers, free of phosphate.

DCA-2 was the first SCA, and it remains the most popular. It can be tested with any test strip that shows Nitrite levels, either a 2-way or 3-way strip.

DCA-4 is a Molybdate/Nitrite based SCA. It uses both Molybdate and Nitrite "synergy" as a cavitation inhibitor. DCA-4 usually has sodium buffers and phosphates.

DCA-4 is somewhat harder to find, maintain, and optimize. It can be tested with a 3-way test strip, although conversions are available for using 2-way strips.
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Old 08-15-2012, 02:29 PM
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Re-railing the thread


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtcheap View Post
its time to change my antifreeze so im wondering is it worth it to upgrade to the IH 203 degree thermostat? does it help with wvo? or should i just use the 195 thermostat .. thanks
As mentioned earlier, I'd recommend staying with the OEM temp. Because the oil cooler works off of coolant temp, hotter coolant = hotter oil. And you don't want that.
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